tonyb
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Cables
Nov 15, 2013 18:58:20 GMT -5
Post by tonyb on Nov 15, 2013 18:58:20 GMT -5
The mighty Doug has been kind enough to let me demo some cables. I don't care what Dan says about him, one helluva guy. They will be displacing my Greg Straily Reality cables which have been my reference for some time now. We shall see how the Legacy's jive with them. I'll post my thoughts after about a week of solid listening. A big thanks to Doug....and you too Dan for helping set it up. Off the top of my head, I'm not so sure they can unseat the current champ, but we shall see.
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Nov 16, 2013 9:38:10 GMT -5
Post by douglasconnection on Nov 16, 2013 9:38:10 GMT -5
It will be very interesting to hear your opinion of our cables vs the ones you mention. I'll get them to you as quickly as I can.
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Nov 16, 2013 11:12:08 GMT -5
Post by nooshinjohn on Nov 16, 2013 11:12:08 GMT -5
Tony, I would not at all be surprised to see you posting before the week is up. It took ten minutes for Doug's cables to being my rig to tell me the MIT's were never going back in.
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Nov 16, 2013 16:00:03 GMT -5
Post by dpowell on Nov 16, 2013 16:00:03 GMT -5
How have those broken in for you John? I think when I was up at your place last and brought the Goertz flatwire, your new speaker cables were so new they needed a bit more burn in time. I heard enough between the three to be satisfied with leaving the Goertz in my rig but also agree that the MIT's certainly weren't worth the coin based on what I heard.
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Nov 16, 2013 20:49:55 GMT -5
Post by txcoastal1 on Nov 16, 2013 20:49:55 GMT -5
I have a pair of Goertz laying around somewhere did not do well in neither of my rigs thought I would not use flat cables again. Now I am using MG audio design cables and extremely happy. We placed them in Skips rig and they sounded flat compared to the Douglas Cables....shows you synergy is a plus in cables. Just and FYI Skips gear is tube and mine is SS.
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Nov 17, 2013 20:06:47 GMT -5
Post by agentorange on Nov 17, 2013 20:06:47 GMT -5
I have many of Doug's cables, will buy more. He is also a great American (different story).
I am not in the camp of $$ wire making any difference for most people. They are important to me as I sit still and listen.
Also, having a wire that is solid and connects that way to your gear is essential. For most that is not a thousand dollar wire.
Doug has a full line and the experience to help you get what you need. I advise to call him before you buy.
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Nov 23, 2013 9:53:26 GMT -5
Post by tnrabbit on Nov 23, 2013 9:53:26 GMT -5
We await your review with baited breath...
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tonyb
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Nov 25, 2013 15:50:30 GMT -5
Post by tonyb on Nov 25, 2013 15:50:30 GMT -5
We await your review with baited breath... Baited breath ?? Hope there isn't a hook in there too.
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tonyb
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Cables
Nov 26, 2013 12:03:49 GMT -5
Post by tonyb on Nov 26, 2013 12:03:49 GMT -5
Initial impressions....but first some disclosures.
First off, anyone trying out new cables in their system has to realize that the newcomers are behind the 8 ball off the bat. Why ? Break in...the amount of hours needed may not happen due to time constraints or available time to demo. Some also take longer than others to break in. For those who don't believe in break-in, get over it, it happens. That said, Dougs cables arrived packed well, enough to withstand any disgruntled postal workers abuse. At first glance, build quality is beyond exceptional. Better than any manufacturer in fact I've seen to date. It was obvious out of the box, someone put some love into building these cables. Also keep in mind this review is for my ears, on my gear, in my room, and not to be used as to the value of Dougs cables in a general sense.
The cables that I had been using, Straily Reality speaker cables and Bogden IC's were working pretty darn well for me. I like to do apple to apple comparisons off the bat so I listened for a half hour to my cables as is before swapping in both Dougs Speaker and IC cables. I wanted to use both to get the full flavor. Music ran the gamut, but I do have some tracks that I use for judging cables and gear. I made sure to listen to exactly the same tracks on both sets of cables.
The thing that popped out immediately was detail, tons of it. Musical notes were more separated. Mid and lower bass was spot on, sharp....focused. The other thing readily apparent was I had to turn the volume dial up 7 db's before reaching the same loudness. This concerned me as I felt there may be some mismatch going on between the cables and amp. Then I realized why. Butler always recommended unshielded cables with their amps. One of the reasons I went with Straily cables to begin with.
Back to the sound. Soundstage was slightly more narrow, not that much of a biggie. Voices seemed to have been more recessed in the soundstage but still sharp. The higher notes seemed to be more tinny sounding and lacked that tone, fleshing out of the notes. More AM radio sounding, and that was concerning. I could contribute this to lack of break-in to some degree, so I decided to play around and see if I could mix and match between my old cables and the new. Tried every conceivable combination. The speaker cables themselves seemed to be more so the culprit than the IC'S. Doug had sent 2 pair of IC'S, one with a black jacket, one with a black and grey jacket. The Black ones also mirrored the speaker cables, tons of detail, bass notes sharp and precise, but lacking in the higher registers. The black and grey IC was the more musical, but sacrificed some detail. It had more tone, more fleshing out of the notes. Wish I could have combined the 2, would have been perfect. The black and grey IC's gelled well with the Strailys, though not as warm as I would have liked, I think after break in they may open up some and warm up.
Dougs cables bring out detail, separation, like crazy. But that's not the whole ball of wax for me. Lacking was soul, musicality, tone.....but again, my cables have had the benefit of long break-in. I decided to set Dougs cables, both speaker and IC's back in to break in some more. Properly broken in, I think these could be the huckleberry of those on all tube gear. I'm going to keep these in for a week, I would feel uncomfortable keeping Dougs cables longer than that. But still that may not be enough time to break these in so my observations should be taken with a grain of salt. I'll update at the end of a week.
As a side note, I had taken Dougs cables out and installed both the old to see what differences I could hear. With the old cables hooked up, same track playing, the old cables certainly had some cloud cover in the detail, that was apparent. But the warmth, musicality, tone was still a tad better. It was almost as if Dougs cables erased what the Butler amp brought to the table. This may be the shielding effect I mentioned earlier....I dunno. But I will give these bad boys more time to play together and see if they can make nice in the sandbox. More later.....
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Nov 26, 2013 21:31:10 GMT -5
Post by douglasconnection on Nov 26, 2013 21:31:10 GMT -5
Tony, glad you got the cables and have tried them in your system. They were used a little bit on another demo, but really don't have that much time on them. I did have to replace the banana plugs on the amp end because the other ones got bent. With those copper banana plugs, care must be taken when inserting them and to make sure the weight of suspended cables is supported by something other than the banana. As most are aware, copper is a softer metal than brass or some other metals other bananas are made from. That's why I had to change out those bananas. Hope you will give them some good play time, and I look forward to hearing further results. Please don't limit yourself to a week, keep them for awhile, and give yourself plenty of time with them.
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tonyb
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Nov 26, 2013 22:14:41 GMT -5
Post by tonyb on Nov 26, 2013 22:14:41 GMT -5
Thanks Dan, and I do have cups holding up those cables as believe it or not I actually read the material you sent along.
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tonyb
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Nov 29, 2013 10:27:37 GMT -5
Post by tonyb on Nov 29, 2013 10:27:37 GMT -5
Just a quick update.
When something bothers me...I can't leave it alone. So I decided to do a little experiment. Having been around a variety of cables with different build quality and metallurgy, I know Dougs cables should sound way better than what I was getting. So I took the Butler amp out of the mix and hooked them up straight to the receiver. I had to keep the volume at reasonable levels as my speakers are 4 ohm and the receivers power supply isn't up to that task. But like I said, when something bugs me.....
Huge difference...soundstage widened, some tone came back, more musicality. Pretty much every aspect I criticized them for improved....and that's with little burn in. I can only conclude that the amp and cables simply are not a match made in heaven and were calling each other names. Well, I can't let the receiver power my speakers for long periods of time either so I removed Dougs speaker cables and resided to the fact that they simply won't jive with the amp. Still letting the IC's burn in more as one pair a really like. More later........
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Nov 29, 2013 13:31:48 GMT -5
Post by douglasconnection on Nov 29, 2013 13:31:48 GMT -5
Tony, I was reading the users manual to your Butler amp and thought it might be good for me to clarify the shielded cable thing. When I first read what you said, I assumed it was the interconnects that they said should not be shielded, which of course, ours are. I could not figure out why, but figured there must be some reason. But in reading the manual, I saw it's shielded speaker cables they say should not be used. Our speaker cables do not have shielding. RFI and EMI are reduced by the twisting of the conductors inside the cable jacket. So, that should not be the reason for the difference in sound you are hearing when using the Butler amp. Don't know what to tell ya as to why the difference. Synergy?? Maybe so. Got to say, this has me puzzled...
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tonyb
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Nov 29, 2013 15:24:58 GMT -5
Post by tonyb on Nov 29, 2013 15:24:58 GMT -5
I dunno either Doug, but it was clear that removing the Butler out of the equation made your cables shine way more and more in line to what I was expecting. Who knows man, stranger shit has happened in audio.
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Deleted
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Dec 1, 2013 15:01:34 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2013 15:01:34 GMT -5
Yes, absolutely mark the polarity. In fact, even if a particular manufacturer says his/her cables are not directional, you should still test the cables in both directions and mark the preferred. There's a technical explanation of directionality based on the method of extruding and/or pressing/forming the conductor, which I won't get in to ('cos I can't remember it ). You may also find certain types of cable to be grounded at one end and not the other, and it makes a difference which component receives the grounded end. All cables will sound different when you change their direction and they do 'bed-in' after continuous use, so it's best to mark them. All of this presupposes that you have a system of sufficient resolution to discern these differences, which can be and usually are quite small, though sufficient to warrant concern for most of us, 'cos we're mostly fucking nuts.
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Dec 3, 2013 20:35:59 GMT -5
Post by douglasconnection on Dec 3, 2013 20:35:59 GMT -5
I have Polk RTi8 towers as my fronts. I had complained in Polk's forum months ago about the speakers not sounding good until you turn the volume up. Not at a blasting level, but you had to give them some juice before they sounded good. Maybe it's my imagination, but since I got the new speaker cables, they seem to sound much, much better at lower volume. Is that just wishful thinking, or is there an actual reason for this? Edit: I know cables make a difference. But this is something I didn't expect. What cables were you using before?
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tonyb
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Dec 3, 2013 20:50:33 GMT -5
Post by tonyb on Dec 3, 2013 20:50:33 GMT -5
There's many reasons for that. The 2 most common are build quality of the cable, and oxidation. Even a build up of static from dust can dull a signal. Oxidation usually happens more so on connectors obviously because they are exposed. A good cleaning every now and then can do wonders. It happens so slowly you don't notice untill something with clean connections is inserted in it's place. Couple that with better signal flow in a better built cable and boom, better sound.
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tonyb
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Post by tonyb on Dec 3, 2013 21:04:11 GMT -5
The Belkin bananas were gold plated. Doug's nanners are copper and have a much tighter fit. Doug designed his cables off of fond high school memories.
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Dec 3, 2013 21:16:11 GMT -5
Post by douglasconnection on Dec 3, 2013 21:16:11 GMT -5
If I remember rightly, you were using jumpers with those 14 gauge wires. With your new Bi-Wire cables you now you have 12 gauge wire going to both highs and lows without jumpers. I have a feeling that alone will give you a boost in sound quality. Then on top of that, everything Tony touched on in his post above. The upgrade you have made should give you the kind of results you are hearing.
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tonyb
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Dec 5, 2013 1:52:15 GMT -5
Post by tonyb on Dec 5, 2013 1:52:15 GMT -5
Doug, I'll send your cables back your way beginning of next week. The one set of Ic's I mentioned is breaking in nicely.
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Dec 5, 2013 9:46:29 GMT -5
Post by douglasconnection on Dec 5, 2013 9:46:29 GMT -5
Thanks Tony. Need to do some testing and see if the gray and black sleeving vs the black makes a difference. Will put those IC's into my system and see what difference I hear. Also, will send them to one of my friends who has great ears to see what his thoughts are. To do the testing right, need to have 2 sets of each. That way can go from source to pre and pre to amp, using same sets, and see what differences there are. If the black and gray proves to somehow affect the sound, then I'll stop offering it as a choice for interconnects. I'll post our findings here.
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Dec 5, 2013 14:36:53 GMT -5
Post by douglasconnection on Dec 5, 2013 14:36:53 GMT -5
What is the purpose of the sleeving other than aesthetics? That's all it's for is to make the cables look purdy I have some customers who ask to have the cables made w/o any sleeving.
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Dec 5, 2013 15:25:33 GMT -5
Post by trav0810 on Dec 5, 2013 15:25:33 GMT -5
I'm a big fan of Doug's work...and of Doug in general! I have purchased several pairs of IC's and i was shocked at the difference they made in my system. And Doug is always a pleasure to deal with.
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Dec 5, 2013 17:43:04 GMT -5
Post by douglasconnection on Dec 5, 2013 17:43:04 GMT -5
Thank you for the kind words Travis
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Dec 8, 2013 19:08:00 GMT -5
Post by trav0810 on Dec 8, 2013 19:08:00 GMT -5
It's funny, if you go into CP and read through my first thread I started back the first week of July and see what I said about cables (I was using clear coats at the time), I would have never thought I'd be where I am today. I've come a long way. Audio is a never ending evolution. That's for sure. I didn't believe that cables could really make that big of a difference in a system...until I tried my first pair of Douglas Connection IC's. Boy wast that an eye (or I should say EAR) opener. Great stuff.
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Ender
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Dec 8, 2013 21:15:00 GMT -5
Post by Ender on Dec 8, 2013 21:15:00 GMT -5
Cables matter, but so does Synergy. I am also a big fan of using the same brand of IC's and SC's.
Hence why its a PITA to get that "right" sound, and once you do, its hard to want to switch anything lol....
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Dec 8, 2013 21:37:33 GMT -5
Post by trav0810 on Dec 8, 2013 21:37:33 GMT -5
I like having all my IC's the same. I'm not really concerned with matching my IC's to my speaker cables though.
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tonyb
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Dec 9, 2013 12:24:09 GMT -5
Post by tonyb on Dec 9, 2013 12:24:09 GMT -5
I like having all my IC's the same. I'm not really concerned with matching my IC's to my speaker cables though. You should reconsider those thoughts. However MIT cables seem to do best when all are the same. A little trial and error never hurt anyone.
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Dec 9, 2013 13:59:22 GMT -5
Post by trav0810 on Dec 9, 2013 13:59:22 GMT -5
I like having all my IC's the same. I'm not really concerned with matching my IC's to my speaker cables though. You should reconsider those thoughts. However MIT cables seem to do best when all are the same. A little trial and error never hurt anyone. I have tried different brands of IC's but the Douglas seem to be the one's that stay in my system. The speaker cables I run are a set of DIY that I am exceptionally happy with. I have tried a few different brands of those as well, but have never taken a pair of Doug's for a spin.
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tonyb
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Cables
Dec 11, 2013 15:00:03 GMT -5
Post by tonyb on Dec 11, 2013 15:00:03 GMT -5
Well, my cable demo has come to a close. While I seemed to have had some compatibility issues with my amp and the speaker cables, the one set of IC's were breaking in nicely, retaining the detail while slowly warming up and expanding. I only wish I could have put another 100 hours on them. However I felt it to be a tad unfair to Doug to keep them that long. Plus he may want to ship out to some of you other shmucks to demo.
I have no problem recommending Dougs cables providing people give them the proper break in. Plus Doug is one of those guys you just want to hug, a great guy to do business with. May success follow Doug like John follows Bob Carver. Thanks man.....
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